Alternative to Migration Plan - Fresh Start

[Flamzorz]

I liked back because when you die you can go and pick up your items before they despawn.

 

[Skeven]

I'm afraid Craftbook (and later Falsebook) is one of the first plugins we wanted to get rid of, with regards to lag). Plugins that edit the Mechanics or have self timed circuits are the biggest cause of lag, as they have to read every movement, block placement or press and decide if they need to process another event. Its with regret Mods like this, which we are desprite to get rid of to reduce lag

Well we could attempt just running craftbook with the basic mechanisms and forget the redstone & minecart components? However if we are to consider this, the admins should probably think hard about it because of the downfalls of Craftbook vs Falsebook.

Also, I wanted to bring up the removal of Oldie. I understand we want to try to make everyone equal on this server, but I still think that there should be some form of recognition for our long term players, whether it's a tag or the name colour. Whether or not any other players share this view has yet to be seen, but I'm just putting it out there for debate as I would be ticked if I lost my oldie status.

The back is a tricky one, as the Essentials /back teleports to last teleport location that comes from Essentials plugin. So that would need some coding, and to be honest I don't like that /back at all. I will make players teleport to their home beds when they die, though.

What's currently handling /back as it is where it returns you to your point of death?

 

[jessenic]

I liked back because when you die you can go and pick up your items before they despawn.

Yeah, but that is not part of survival minecraft, and I think it is cheating

 

[Strategia]

Regarding Lifts, espically in Creative. When you have fly mode, all you need is a 1x1 empty hole for a lift shaft, then you walk in and press space to go up, or shift to go down, like a real lift.

Indeed, and minecraft has ladders too.

What concerns me about this is two things; first, that in earlier posts, you said flying would be restricted in Creative, and two, that tall ladders are very annoying to climb - it's already a drag to get up to the watchtower on my 1.8 temp survival home. In Creative, people are likely to build very tall structures, and if flying is restricted moving around in them - for instance, to get back up after accidentally falling off the wall while building - would be an immense annoyance. Also, [Lift] functionality would be useful in Survival, where there is no flying to begin with (and if there is, it will be followed by a swift banhammering). Tall buildings are useful for safety and compactness reasons, and e.g. castles and defensive walls around villages are also likely to be rather on the vertical side. Climbing up and down ladders to move around in these structures is a major drag, not to mention that ladders are nearly impossible to use when there are multiple people trying to get up and/or down them. I've noticed this in my temp survival house too, during the first few nights, when there's even just one other person on the ladder it becomes very hard to get where you want/need to be, it's even worse with two or - admins forbid - more. [Lift]s would be a bit cheap, sure, but they'd also be very convenient, and remove a potential source of annoyance/danger - especially when constructing a tall wall, the risk of accidentally being pushed off a ladder and taking a lot of damage or even dying outright is very real.

Gates on the other hand, would be cool to see people use Pistons for.

Walls and passages through them are likely to appear very quickly, especially around villages. At that point, iron is still very valuable and better used for other purposes (i.e. tools), and redstone would be very scarce and hard to come by; early redstone hunting can furthermore be very dangerous given the limited resources available to miners, and their time would be better spent mining iron/stone at that point anyway. So pistons would be very hard to get a hold of early on, which would leave villages either wide open for mobs (as we noticed in the temp village), or without a suitable means of getting out and back in, which would hamper the acquisition of other resources, most notably food. Conversely, focusing on pistons early on would require so much effort and specialisation that other fields of development suffer, resulting in a village with a piston-powered gate but no supplies of basically anything else.

And finally, a piston gate requires sticky pistons, otherwise it's only a way of closing a perfectly good opening in the wall. And as far as I know, slimes are still exceptionally rare. So piston gates would be entirely impossible for a long time, and even then they'd be very rare and valuable. [Gate]s are a much quicker, easier way of securing a wall, without detracting from the usefulness - and awesomeness - of piston gates.

Overall, to all these posts, we admit were losing functionality, but its the desire for functionality which got us into the situation we have of over 20 plugins and a laggy server (dispite it having 5x 2ghz Cores, and 3GB of ram dedicated to MC which on Vanilla, could handle 100+ players lag free, but on our serve can't handle more than 10) We do need a fresh start, and if over a month or so we find we need urgent functionality, I'd sooner us do it in a clean way, than to bulk on many big plugins.

Sorry if that appeared negative, what I was trying to get at was that we do need to be as Vanilla as possible, and regarding a few things we may need, I would sooner us try and see how it goes without first, then if there is a major need for them, I would rather us develop our own in house solution, instead of the bulky plugins available which do so much we don't need. Does that sound acheiveable?

That sounds very reasonable and achievable, and I agree with trimming a lot of the excess weight.

Like you, I'm not trying to sound negative in this post, I'm just advocating the [Lift] and especially the [Gate] functionality as mechanisms that, while short-cutting some parts of vanilla Minecraft, would add a lot to the game without actually detracting much, making the Creative and Survival worlds safer (within reason) and more pleasant to live and work in.

 

[Nimrod]

Well we could attempt just running craftbook with the basic mechanisms and forget the redstone & minecart components? However if we are to consider this, the admins should probably think hard about it because of the downfalls of Craftbook vs Falsebook.

Also, I wanted to bring up the removal of Oldie. I understand we want to try to make everyone equal on this server, but I still think that there should be some form of recognition for our long term players, whether it's a tag or the name colour. Whether or not any other players share this view has yet to be seen, but I'm just putting it out there for debate as I would be ticked if I lost my oldie status.

If we want Lifts and Gates, like in my post I said we would rather handle this in house, than relying on big plugins for the reasons mentioned. I think Lifts may be achievable, but Gates instantly opens up Item Duping, so I dont thats suitable for Survival. (Unlimited Wood / Fences!) Thats instantly where half the duping happens, same with Bridge.

Regarding Oldie, the one way to do that is to install some form of Usergroups. I agree with rewarding them somehow, but using Permissions ingame means messing around with config and usergroups. Op is just Vanilla Minecraft, your discussing going back to the old ways. Plus with such a small amount of Permissions available, what would oldies get that normal players didnt?

Like you, I'm not trying to sound negative in this post, I'm just advocating the [Lift] and especially the [Gate] functionality as mechanisms that, while short-cutting some parts of vanilla Minecraft, would add a lot to the game without actually detracting much, making the Creative and Survival worlds safer (within reason) and more pleasant to live and work in.

As per my mention above, Lifts may be possible but Gates do open a big duplication issue.


Overall I really feel bad because while we all agree on the new worlds which is great, were deadlocked over features. Theres Jessenic and Me which are fighting for the servers stability and future downsize sake, and theres you and Skeven especially who's fighting for the server functionality. Which is great as there both important topics, but we do need to meet in the middle or come to some neutrally accepted middle ground.

This is why Jessenic has already started working on simple plugins to replace Essentials and more, maybe we could meet in the middle and work towards Possibily having Lift functionality, and agree to disagree on Gates and meet in the middle of having Lift, but no gate.

The one route I personally do not want to go down, is the whole usergroups too much, as there won't be prefixs to show off the groups. So I don't know how to reward Oldies ingame :/

 

[punkymunky]

you have my vote for a fresh start

 

[Strategia]

As per my mention above, Lifts may be possible but Gates do open a big duplication issue.

If there is a new plugin being developed, would it be possible to make Gates work differently? What I'm thinking of is perhaps having to place the entire gatework before a gate sign would function, and the gate system remembering the size and layout of the gate, so removing blocks when it's closed, then opening and closing it again, would result in those blocks still being gone. Although this would probably be hard to code.

An alternative is to make gate signs work somewhat akin to sticky pistons (albeit only useful with a vertical fence/iron bar gate); instead of removing and replacing blocks, the entire framework would be moved up until it either hits a ceiling or the lowest layer is at the same height the top layer is when closed. This would require larger gatehouses, since they'd need to provide room for the gates to open, which could look nice IMO. Again, this could be hard to code, but it would be a way of having [Gate] signs without item duping being a problem.

If both of these don't work (and I don't get any other "brilliant" ideas later on), I'll concede to the loss of the [Gate] sign. If so, I'd suggest making slimeballs more easy to get, but not too easy - for instance, allowing Ender Pearls to be transformed into Slimeballs by using a special sign (place Pearls in the sign's "inventory", slimeballs drop on the ground when closed, 1-on-1, other items get deleted - doubles as a [Disposal] sign) or allowing them to be smelted (over a long time, I'd say 8 times as long as normal, requiring 1 coal per Pearl->Slimeball. Maybe 32 or 64 times, requiring 4 or 8 coal respectively). That way, it's more conceivable for players to make sticky pistons, without making them too common or easy to get.

Overall I really feel bad because while we all agree on the new worlds which is great, were deadlocked over features. Theres Jessenic and Me which are fighting for the servers stability and future downsize sake, and theres you and Skeven especially who's fighting for the server functionality. Which is great as there both important topics, but we do need to meet in the middle or come to some neutrally accepted middle ground.

I don't feel that we're deadlocked, I'm keeping an open mind, I just tend to have lots of ideas about..... well, anything, that I'm throwing out there. If it's impossible/unreasonable, I'm more than willing to concede.

The one route I personally do not want to go down, is the whole usergroups too much, as there won't be prefixs to show off the groups. So I don't know how to reward Oldies ingame :/

I'll kinda miss the old system, but yeah, it only got more confusing towards the end, with new usergroups being created and others being changed. The idea I'll put forth next week (as per your request, it'll keep) would provide an alternative way to reward Oldies, without having to require usergroups or the like.

 

[Skeven]

Regarding Oldie, the one way to do that is to install some form of Usergroups. I agree with rewarding them somehow, but using Permissions ingame means messing around with config and usergroups. Op is just Vanilla Minecraft, your discussing going back to the old ways. Plus with such a small amount of Permissions available, what would oldies get that normal players didnt?

I'm not saying we reward them for being oldies or any complicated shit, but it appears that you're doing away with the whole groups/permission system together which would save on some resources, but also make things a little more complicated for special exceptions when it comes to allocating permissions to individuals (such as Skyworld warps, are we ditching that?). Anyhow we don't need to give them anything dazzling, but maybe letting them toy with Logblock and what little low-level commands that don't impact gameplay we could spare would be nice.

Anyhow, I could definitely compromise on having lifts and not gates, as minecraft has built in gates now, and with lifts we can make work arounds. I wouldn't promote piston gates however, not only are they not cost/time effective, they're a wonderful source of concentrated lag.

 

[Nimrod]

Anyhow, I could definitely compromise on having lifts and not gates, as minecraft has built in gates now, and with lifts we can make work arounds. I wouldn't promote piston gates however, not only are they not cost/time effective, they're a wonderful source of concentrated lag.

Look's like were getting to a good middle ground there

We're agreed to start work on the Lift bit, and go from there.

In general though, were not aiming to kill off every command or plugin in existing long term, we wanted to start fresh and take them away then we can see whats missed, and whats needed, then work to bring them back in a more timely and controlled manner. We did this before on the 1.2 Refresh over a year ago, Our plugins got out of hand in the Hey0 1.1 Server, then when we had a new refresh for 1.2 we started with no plugins, then slowly added back ones we needed, and new ones thats come out. We just kind of hit that natural peak again where we have too many plugins and need to start fresh and then slowly bring back as we need, if that makes sense? Our server will get needed functionality over time, but as part of the refresh it still basic to begin with and go from there.

I'm going to make a poll now, people are welcome to discuss this further with any questions or concerns. The Poll will be open till the 20th of September. I appreciate Mikewalt11 will not be able to vote, but rest assured if the vote says yes to this plan, we will give him time to discuss his buildings (same for anyone else whos on holiday). If you can all have a long think about this, and decide if overall your want to go ahead with it, vote yes, if you don't want to for sure vote no, if you are undecided please take the time to think about it, and ask anymore questions you wish to allow you to make an informed decision. Either way, this process won't happen till 1.9 which isnt due for a month or two yet. Remember, informed decisions - Please ask if unsure!



Warning: Any Digiex Member who is not a Minecraft Player who wastes our time by voting in this, will instantly lose 50 reputation, making it next to impossible to ever become a power user. This vote is for the Digiex Minecraft Players only.

 

[vesa]

i think that we do not need [lift] or [gate] sins we can make protections to our early houses even without those by using ladders (all mobs cant use ladders) or by some other ways and when you have pistons you can make ugly door with only using 2 pistons(one pushing block away and other to push it back) and when you have sticky pistons you can even make cool looking doors that will protect your house and also it would mean that we have more realistic minecraft.

 

[Skeven]

i think that we do not need [lift] or [gate] sins we can make protections to our early houses even without those by using ladders (all mobs cant use ladders) or by some other ways and when you have pistons you can make ugly door with only using 2 pistons(one pushing block away and other to push it back) and when you have sticky pistons you can even make cool looking doors that will protect your house and also it would mean that we have more realistic minecraft.

Again, the propagation of pistons and sticky pistons will lead to concentrated lag in the area they're built it. It was seen many times in 1.7, and I doubt they ever fixed it (since apparently nothing has been fixed regarding redstone). Also, how is a piston door any more realistic than lifts/gates? It's more vanilla, but it's certainly not more realistic. Besides, the point isn't to cover a 2x1 area with a gate, it's to cover a wide (3x3 if not more) area which can be toggled and that's where it becomes exceedingly complex for players to make piston doors that cover that.

For 2x1 "door" sized areas, the vanilla doors or a fence block should be used,
For anything greater than a 3x3, it becomes most efficient to use a [gate],
There's no room for efficiency when it comes to piston doors, it's only that they look cool the first couple of times (but are complex, require a large redstone network under them, and typically lead to lag in the area surrounding them)

 

[Jozo117]

I want fresh start and voted yes, but could you please reply if we can have a fresh start but i have my mansion as a copy or something for my single player world?

 

[Strategia]

i think that we do not need [lift] or [gate] sins we can make protections to our early houses even without those by using ladders (all mobs cant use ladders) or by some other ways and when you have pistons you can make ugly door with only using 2 pistons(one pushing block away and other to push it back) and when you have sticky pistons you can even make cool looking doors that will protect your house and also it would mean that we have more realistic minecraft.

Any mob can climb a ladder in the same way a player does: by pushing against it. Mobs are not smart enough to deliberately use ladders — they won't stay on a ladder to get somewhere — but a ladder directly in their straight-line path will let them climb up.

If you've attracted the attention of a mob, they'll happily follow you up the ladder and into your village/enclosure. As far as the pistons are concerned, as Skeven said, they cause a lot of lag, a 2x1 opening would be better protected by a normal door, and even with sticky pistons you can't really make a gate more than 2 blocks wide, and that's IF you can find enough slimeballs. [Gate]s would be much simpler, easier to set up, would cause less lag, and would just look and work better.

 

[Nimrod]

For 2x1 "door" sized areas, the vanilla doors or a fence block should be used,
For anything greater than a 3x3, it becomes most efficient to use a [gate],
There's no room for efficiency when it comes to piston doors, it's only that they look cool the first couple of times (but are complex, require a large redstone network under them, and typically lead to lag in the area surrounding them)

Until the possibility later of a Gate without Duplication can be custom made, there is either Doors, Iron Doors, Fence Gate and Pistons. Not ideal when you want Gates, but at least until that functionality is available its usable.

I would like to vote yes, and ive read the whole thing. I agree with a fresh start but i would also like my buildings could you please reply if we can have a fresh start but i have my mansion? this is the only building i want since its my favorite. I will vote yes/no when i get this answer thanks

You can talk to an Admin privately about keeping your mansions schematics if you want, but the conversation has mentioned the possibility of it for those who just cannot cope without it and it would only be one small building (ie no skyscrapers), and it would be into Creative World only. However putting the outcome of your vote based on your mansion which while is nice, doesn't take weeks to build (1-2 hours at most with item spawning) isn't very positive, you should be making a choice for the benefit of the server, not just your personal small house.

If you've attracted the attention of a mob, they'll happily follow you up the ladder and into your village/enclosure. As far as the pistons are concerned, as Skeven said, they cause a lot of lag, a 2x1 opening would be better protected by a normal door, and even with sticky pistons you can't really make a gate more than 2 blocks wide, and that's IF you can find enough slimeballs. [Gate]s would be much simpler, easier to set up, would cause less lag, and would just look and work better.

Again, same as my reply to skeven a few quotes up. [Gate] will be classed as an desired but not required feature for our custom Mod makers to look into. It will be based on removing duplication and using as few hooks as possible to Bukkit to keep it lag free. It may not be around for the start of the new server, but you can expect it a few months in I would hope all going well.

 

[vesa]

Also, how is a piston door any more realistic than lifts/gates? It's more vanilla, but it's certainly not more realistic.

there are pistons in real world but there is no teleports or signs that you can use to duplicate fences

Again, the propagation of pistons and sticky pistons will lead to concentrated lag in the area they're built it.

and if pistons make lagg then you can make doors so we dont need [gates] for anything

i would like to have vanilla survival where is hard to mine diamonds and mobs killing you and no cheating like [lift] or [gate] or /tree or any other cheats

 

[MrNitvit]

I think this is an awesome idea. Although i recommend having TNT turned off or having some sort of an area which is sorta TNT only other wise when you walk out of the area it disappears from you inv and if it get blown by a cannon then it hits an imaginary wall. Also making the server more private would reduce donators but reduce the amount of cost per month since there would be less people coming on.

 

[Strategia]

Although i recommend having TNT turned off or having some sort of an area which is sorta TNT only other wise when you walk out of the area it disappears from you inv and if it get blown by a cannon then it hits an imaginary wall.

That would be Minetopia. I assume it's going to use region code, since removing items from the inventory or creating invisible walls would be a major headache to code - besides, you can use TNT decoratively, like the TNT torches I've got around my plot in C17 (although they keep burning out).

 

[Skeven]

Again, same as my reply to skeven a few quotes up. [Gate] will be classed as an desired but not required feature for our custom Mod makers to look into. It will be based on removing duplication and using as few hooks as possible to Bukkit to keep it lag free. It may not be around for the start of the new server, but you can expect it a few months in I would hope all going well.

What about hooking [gates] to operate on glass panes instead of wood gate blocks?

there are pistons in real world but there is no teleports or signs that you can use to duplicate fences

By that logic, I should also have a nether portal and the world is overrun by endermen. Minecraft isn't realistic. </thread>

 

[Strategia]

What about hooking [gates] to operate on glass panes instead of wood gate blocks?

You get glass panes back when you mine them. And a glass gate doesn't look very good.

 

[Skeven]

You get glass panes back when you mine them. And a glass gate doesn't look very good.

Yeah, I just found that out. We could use glass blocks.
I'd rather have a glass block gate than no gate at all.